Listen kid, I'm not gonna bullshit you, all right? I don't give a good fuck what you know, or don't know, but I'm gonna torture you anyway, regardless. Not to get information. It's amusing, to me, to torture a cop. You can say anything you want cause I've heard it all before. All you can do is pray for a quick death, which you ain't gonna get. – Mr. Blonde in the movie ‘Reservoir Dogs’
In the summer of 64 AD, Rome suffered a terrible fire that burned for five and a half days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Rome). Rome's emperor at that time was Nero. In order to squash rumors that he was responsible for the fire, Nero forced some Christians to confess to being the arsonists (Christianity was a newly forming religious sect at that time). These Christians were then tortured and thrown to the wild beasts in the circus, or they were crucified. Many of them were also burned to death at night, serving as 'lighting' in Nero's gardens, while Nero mingled among the watching crowds.
It isn't really the brutality of Nero that is to be detested because history is replete with such acts of cruelty. The real question instead is, who were Nero's guests? What kind of people were quietly watching and probably cheering at the spectacle of the burning Christians?
On my recent trip to Spain, I found my answer at Plaza de toros, a bullfighting stadium in Madrid. When I was booking my trip to Spain, I figured that watching a bullfight would definitely have to be on the agenda. Also known as Corrida de toros (literally "running of bulls") in Spanish, it seemed part of the package, which would let you to soak in the Spanish culture. I had seen and read about heroic matadors with their colorful capes and their skillful maneuvers to control the wild, charging bulls. It seemed like this would be the highlight of the trip. Doubts began to creep in however, when I started reading about it. The bullfight wasn’t actually a fight as much as it was an ambush. The animal would be made to run around, be tortured and killed. I did not book tickets to it prior to the trip after reading about it. It seemed wrong to be a part of this. I even had a conversation with some people expressing my feelings.
And yet, when we landed in Madrid all morals flew out the window and I found myself in the stadium thinking – ‘come on how bad can it be’. I had become Nero’s guest (This analogy was first made by P. Sainath, one of India's most eminent journalists in the documentary of the same name based on farmer suicides in Vidarbha). Back to the bullfight, there were about five matadors in the ring and they looked anything but heroic, not to mention a horseman with a spear and a confused animal. I won’t go into all the details of the bullfight. Suffice to say that we lasted all of three minutes before deciding to walk out from amidst the crowds who were still cheering.
The real point of this is not self-loathing, nor is it to take a moral high-stance on the people who stayed back – after all I was part of this for as long as I was in there. The reality is, we have all probably been one of Nero’s guests at some point or the other in our lives. Every time we have not spoken up against acts of injustice, every time we’ve looked the other way when we should have raised our voices, we have been one of Nero’s guests.
At this very moment, there are several movements going on around the world, driven by people who are not ready to be the spectators of their own lives. I salute these people. Indian Independence day was on August 15th and though I’m late by a few days, I am thankful to the people who made it possible by refusing to be Nero’s guests.
Thursday, August 18, 2011
Thursday, December 17, 2009
Telangana debate
A series of email exchanges on the Telangana state formation
Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:10 AM PST
check out this article.....
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1947392,00.html
Rgds,
Mr X
Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM PST
Interesting. I find it quite baffling that the Telangana movement is equated with thousand other separate state requests - Telangana movement has been there (dormat it may have been) for the last 50 years atleast.
One of the things most people forget to mention is the fact that Potti sreeramulu fought for division from the Madras state due to the perceived negligence much like the current Telangana movement.
Also, Telangana was a state on its own before 1956 - so, the demand for separation is not something new.
In any case, 50+ years of unified Andhra Pradesh did little to solve the problems of the majority of Telangana people - I think its time Telangana people take their matters into their own hands and figure out effective solutions. Smaller states (Telangana with 3.5 crore ppl is no small state for that matter) can be administered better anyway.
I have been to villages in Telangana and been talking to ppl from the Telangana districts and the popular support for a separate state is genuine and widespread. If there were a referendum in the Telangana region, it would garner the support of at least 90% of the populace.
While I am not in support of any particular political outfit like the TRS - I do firmly believe that Telanaga statehood is for the ultimate benefit of the ppl from the region. It may not be in the short term, but much more likely in the near-long term (15-20 years perhaps).
Jai Telangana!
Mr. Y
Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:10 AM PST
I couldn't disagree more.
Your argument has parallels to a well known theory - It is called Rawl's maxi-min theory of the least advantaged or distributive justice. It proposes that all social primary goods are to be distributed equally unless an unequal distribution of any or all of these goods is to the advantage of the least favored - In this case the least favored or advantaged being the people of Telangana or atleast 90% of them according to you.
This argument/theory ignores the fact that the problem lies in the manner in which that distribution came about, not with the pattern of the distribution itself. Who is to say that the solution to an inequal distribution of resources is another redistribution of resources ? Instead of trying to cure the symptom , the country's/region's landlords should cure the problem.
I would take this a step further and equate this proposed separation to borderline socialism. And the history of socialism is proof of what can happen when such redistributive justice is handed out by the powers that be. This can only set a precedent for other such separatist movements which as you can see is already happening. In this regard you should, therefore, not be baffled by people who are equating it with a 'thousand other separate state requests'. This Balkanization will not stop once set in motion. I assume you would support all these other movements which also have a history and where possibly more than 90% of the people want it to happen. I cannot support this socialist viewpoint. I need not tell you what happened to the USSR.
I will draw another parallel , if you may. In marketing we have a well accepted theory that if you want to keep your brand alive and well and if you want to think long term growth and build equity - all the strategic decisions should be taken by headquarters and only the implementation and minor details should be left to the regional managers. The country's headquarters - The Centre - has failed to recognize the long term implications not only to India in the long term but to the region as well. Regional managers always think they need special treatment and that their case is so 'unique' and their branding has to be separate from the overall brand vision. It's up to headquarters to call the bluff.
Coming to specifics - Maybe I am not great at reading poll results but I don't know why the TRS did not win the last election hands down in Telangana (maybe they didn't have resources/money to win/buy votes ?) Why not try a less radical approach first ? Why don't the people of Telangana agitate for a Bill which calls for more equal distribution of wealth within the state of AP. Is it possible to enact this legislation ? Will that solve their problems ? Worth a try. Not having talked to a single person in Telangana, I still think the cause maybe just - the solution is not. I'm not one given to too much nostalgia and don't hold this for old times' sake. I just think the process of separation creates many inefficiencies which are not beneficial to India and the region in the long term. One hand of the Centre will always be tied up in dealing with insurgencies and as a result a bigger majority will suffer than the people of Telangana.
But overall , I'm afraid the wheels have been set in motion and this separate state will come to pass. India is a democracy by the loosest of definitions. We are making it less so by supporting such movements (and yes I did lie about the nostalgia part - I wish we could keep it together - for old times' sake)
Mr. Z
Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:41 AM PST
In an ideal democracy and an ideal society without corruption there is no need for the creation of a separate state - I am with you on that. We could all be one happy "Vasudhaika Kutumbum". That is Utopia. Unfortunately, the reality of life is very different.
As far as the "borderline socialism" branding is concerned, you can call it whatever you want. I see that as diverging from the issue and I dont want to get into the debate of Socialism-Communism-Capitalism. It is a much broader subject and in my opinion not relevant to the issue at hand. And, in any case - isn't India a Sovereign, Socialist, Secular Nation according to the Indian Constitution?
And, I must profess that I am not a major in Social Sciences or Business Administration. So, I will stay away from which marketing strategy works best for a Multi National.
But, we must remember that this is a democracy that we are talking about and all its constituents have their voice. If the will of the majority of the people is for creating a separate state after trying to be a part of Unified Andhra Pradesh, I definitely voice my support for it. And, am sure a smaller state will be much easier to administrate, the resources allocated for the new state will be spent only in the region and so forth.
We might be sitting in the comfort of our lives with our cushy jobs - but, at the end of the day - the farming and working community across a disadvantaged region like Telangana have to figure out how to get the water for the next crop. If such a problem could not be solved in the last 50 years, who is to say that the status-quo should continue and they must continue to suffer.
It is time to be assertive and creative in coming up with solutions to ongoing problems like these. Yes, if you can get a administration that is fair and transparent to represent the people at both the state and Central level - the problems that we see today would not be there. But, how practical do you think it is in the present context in our country?
Ohh and another thing - KCR is not Telangana personified. He happens to be a politician who is much like Chandra Babu Naidus and YSRs and Lagadapatis of the world. The reason he (TRS) lost the recent elections is because:
1) He is a politician - which means he is corrupt
2) He didn't deliver on the promises that he made: to be precise, he didnt deliver Telangana state
3) The people perceived him as neglecting the cause of Telangana and hence voiced their opposition to his party: which shows that the ppl of Telananga want a separate state.
Also, NONE of the political parties that contested in the General Elections 2009 in Telangana opposed Telangana.
1) Congress explicitly stated in 2004 and months before May 2009 (Feb 2009) that they will start the process.
2) TDP was part of the Grand Alliance with TRS and promised Telangana statehood if they win
3) PRP promised Telangana as part of its Agenda
4) BJP - the one party that was consistent on Telangana statehood - ofcourse promised creation of Telangana
I am in no way supporting any political outfit. My voice of support is only for the creation of a separate state for Telangana.
Jai Telangana! And Let Peace!
Mr. Y
Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM
I wouldn't call this a creative solution..It is such a primitive solution...I was trying to kick it up a notch higher...In setting aside the macro picture you ignored the crux of my argument ..Anyway , this 'cushy job' and 'air-conditioned room' argument to doubt the credibility of people who raise issues is a rather precarious stand to take... I choose to look at the bigger picture of the 'reality of life' in India ..I made my point on this earlier... Is the solution to 50 years of politicians' incompetency a separate state ? I don't want to belabor my point any further ..
Also , using the argument of India being defined in the constitution as Socialist state is almost like quoting from the bible to prove the existence of God...That's an argument for another day..
I want to explore the question of whether the argument for a separate state is ethical.. Proponents of the separate state conveniently switch the argument to "what should be done" rather than " should anything be done"..I don't know if all other avenues have been explored sufficiently enough to impose this grand scale public goal without regards to context , costs and means...I want to get into a lot of philosophy here but will spare you the trauma...
I am sorry, but for all the talks of political party agendas - had YSR not died, nobody would have missed a beat; It would have been life as usual. I see this issue as topical - one that is raked up every now and then - to shy away from solving the problem seriously...If this issue was 50 years old , I was living in a a cocoon, cos. I never heard anything about it until this new guy started talking a few years ago...Seriosuly , please send me some literature which I can read on this issue of what the problem is and why it has been one for so long..
The "not happened before, won't happen now" argument to me is a lot of people collectively drinking a bit too much of their own Koolaid..Ultimately , a defeatist and fallback option which is being chosen...
Good discussion anyway...
Jai Bharat !
Mr. Z
Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:44 PM PST
Just because you have not heard of a problem, it does not mean that there is no dormant movement. Every movement, every cause has its ups and downs. And right now, the Telangana movement has its momentum.
And you and I were not certainly around when the 1969 movement for a separate Telangana was in full-throttle. If you read up about the root causes of that movement, you will being to grasp the roots of the problem.
My dad tells me his account of the 1969 movement and its not something that was raked up solely by selfish politicians. It was a genuine movement with real issues underneath. The SRC (State Reorg Commission) of 1956 specifically recommended not uniting Telangana and Andhra States and yet under a Gentleman's Agreement the state of AP was formed. The terms of that agreement were bound to end by 1969 without the end goals of equal distribution of resources and jobs being achieved. And, back in 1969 - I hope we can all agree that politics were not as corrupt as they are now.
Just as you feel that your credibility is being doubted by the 'cushy job' argument, branding every cause/movement a Socialist or Communist one does not help a discussion. We have our differences in opinion - and that is okay.
And as for India being a Socialist state argument is concerned: it is exactly what the Constitution has stipulated. Dont you think the Indian nation is bound by its Constitution? Rather than trying to exaggerate it by drawing a parallel with fundamentalist Christianity, a more just parallel would be the Constitutional conformists in the US (in terms of gun rights, perhaps).
And if your version of maintaining a unified AP takes thugs like YSR, I dont offer any counter to it. It is self-evident how unjustified it is.
And, after all this: what alternative solution do you propose to the Telangana issue?
Jai Telangana!
Mr. Y
Dec 17, 2009 at 2:49 AM PST
The very fact that you and I have lived through almost our entire adult lives under this so called cloud of protest and we had to ask our dads what happened in 1969 and refer wikipedia to research the gentleman's agreement is proof enough that the legs on this movement are artificial....Yes sure , I can read up about the root causes....I bet you nobody born during the Indian struggle for independence had to 'read up' why we were fighting the British...They just knew...
I guess you might therefore also have read up that the party which restarted this sham movement in 1990 was none other than the BJP which as we all know had the best intentions of the country at heart back then as seen through the Ayodhya movement ..
You are latching on to a small issue which is the parallel to the bible - mentioned just to show how people's faith can be misplaced...The reason India has progressed to what it is today , is not because it is socialist as defined by the constitution - just the opposite....B.R. Ambedkar, the man who helped draft the Constitution, specifically gave his reason for the non-inclusion of the word “socialism” when it was sought to be inserted into the Preamble. Ambedkar did not want the Constitution to tie down future generations....It was actually added on as an amendment to the preamble in 1976 during the emergency by Indira Gandhi..She did this despite the Supreme Court finding barely three years earlier that the preamble was not subject to amendment...Compulsory allegiance to socialism by political parties was imposed as an amendment to RPA in 1989 by Rajiv Gandhi..So you can only see how sacred this word is in the constitution..I don't wish to go into further debate here or dwell on all the pitfalls of socialism..It is no coincidence that countries which incorporated socialism as the only political ideology of the state inevitably degenerated into one-party dictatorship..We should be thankful India did not choose to go this path.....Anyway , you're still skirting all the other issues I raised in my original email..
Right now I am still waiting for someone to tell me why we need a separate state for these issues (issues which I am right now accepting as issues on face value) ..Telangana has 107 out of 294 MLAs which is no small number.. What makes you think that all the neglect will be corrected (in 15-20 years as u said) ? Who pays for the costs of this experiment in the short term ? Have all options been exhausted...Why does this problem have to be solved today....The movement has got attention now so why not use this to push some legislation through which impacts the region directly....Parties could have run on this plank as well (more sops,subsidies,effective legislation) but they want to sucker people into a mass hysteria which people start believing is the saving grace...
Enough said....We can agree to disagree.
Mr. Z
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:54 AM PST
My point is exactly the same - you and I are not affected in a significant way by the creation of a new state. But that does not mean that the rest of the people of the region are not. Just as you talk about the Indian freedom struggle, the people who are facing the issues know their suffering. And mind you - if the Indian nation had really fought the British as a united force, we would have had our Independence long before 1947. The silent majority simply bore through the rule. The majority of the law-enforcement and Army was Indian, wasn't it? The Telangana movement is no different.
The Gentleman's agreement is something my Dad first told me about called "Peddamanushula Oppandam". And, sure enough I read Wiki about it and there were ample references in it. If you read abt something in Wiki, does not mean that the issue does not have real legs. And, I am in no claiming that I am Telangana personified. I don't claim to know all the issues and the numbers. But, I do have some knowledge about some of the projects. And, I did talk to the people that are affected and desire a separate state. And, I firmly believe the creation of the new state will start solving some of the problems at least.
If you so firmly believe in the Unified Andhra State, why dont you furnish real numbers? Why dont you talk about how much money was spent in Telangana vs Andhra, how many major irrigation projects were promised and delivered in Telangana vs Andhra? And, if you agree that enough has not been done - what do you propose that can be done differently?
Its easy to ask someone to furnish the data to back their claims. e.g. You claim that the Indian democracy is a democracy by the loosest of the definitions. What numbers do you have to support this claim? Or what numbers do you have to support the apparent rampant corruption in the Indian system. I can go on with the list but let me spare you from the trauma.
I stand corrected on the roots of inclusion of the word Socialism in the Indian Constitution - I really didnt know the roots where it came from. On that front, I dont have anything to add - as I said in my first response, I see that as diverging from the issue that we are talking about.
As for other solutions to the Telangana problem, I have not still heard anything concrete from you. And all the abstract ones that you suggested were all promised and broken. As for the specific issues:
- The one major irrigation project that I do know that affected the people from Nalgonda district is the SLBC (SriSailam Left Bank Canal). I dont have the complete details on the project, but I have known about it since abt 5th grade. The project was promised an allocation of some 5000 crore rupees or so (the numbers might be off) and it was allocated a meagre 1 crore every year. The projected lingered on for some 20 years and only after Alimeneti Madhava Reddy's death did the Naidu goverment push forward with the project.
- There are many more such projects that have been promised in the last 30-40 years in the Telangana region and never either saw the light of the day, or were implemented to a fraction of the original plan. Devadula, Pochampadu to name a few.
- Water distribution: Telangana recieves roughly 1:4 ratio of the water from major projects like Nagarjuna Sagar dam. It was promised a 50% share.
In any case, neither I nor the Telanagana people need address all the questions that you have raised. The people are the ones that are suffering and they have suffered enough and they are demanding a separate state and I firmly support the creation of the state.
You can discount the Telanagana movement as mass hysteria and marginalize the issue. You and I dont have much at stake and we can afford to take that position. But, the people that are affected dont have that luxury.
Enough said. Its time for precipitative action. Jai Telangana!
Mr. Y
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:45 AM PST
I haven't thought about the solutions to an extent where I can start spewing proposals over email.....The people supporting it on the other hand claim to somehow be experts in knowing that this will definitely solve their problems....
All my questions do stand..Let's take the example of creation of Chattisgarh, Uttaranchal and Jharkhand..The people agitated for years against apathy of the parent states - MP, UP and Bihar, respectively...You can read what is happening to Jharkhand in the nine years since it became a micro-state - It has suffered from political inaction (surprise), corruption and Maoist insurgency....Chattisgarh has Maoist problems caused by outfits like Salwa Judum...The intensifying conflict has resulted in thousands of tribals coming out of the forest (where the Naxalites operate) to live in government-run camps..You can even see Videos of it on youtube....Uttarakhand is faring slightly better......Actually , Jharkhand and Chattisgarh became "failed" states despite the large mineral and natural resources .... How one can be assured the divided state will be economically sustainable after the division ? Or are you willing to give this a shot as if this is a poker game ?
I don't think you answered or addressed my questions and concerns about the balkanization of India in my first email even in abstract terms either - so we can call it even in terms of talking past each other...As I said , you are looking at this problem through a microscope...I am surprised to hear you asking for proof in terms of numbers for stating that India is a loose democracy...Those of us who have lived in India know what happens in our democracy and know exactly what that means.For more details I refer you to "Listening to Grasshoppers" by Arundhati Roy..It's a good read too...As for corruption , you can look up India's rank in the corruption index...What exactly is your point anyway in asking for all these numbers ? Failed irrigation projects and water issues are dime a dozen in every state and constituency in India....I
If you can support this cause without completely knowing all the issues as you stated and I can oppose it for similar reasons - imagine the number of disillusioned souls out there who have no clue why they are asking for this..
Mr. Z
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:44 AM PST
We seem to be expanding the scope of the issue with every other email. We have our differences on the creation of Telangana and let that be the case.
Mr. Y
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:27 AM PST
This was a good discussion...I surely learnt something new from your mails. Hopefully it was the same for you and for the passive audience if they labored through these emails...We should catch up for lunch sometime.......Or not ;)
Mr. Z
Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:10 AM PST
check out this article.....
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1947392,00.html
Rgds,
Mr X
Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM PST
Interesting. I find it quite baffling that the Telangana movement is equated with thousand other separate state requests - Telangana movement has been there (dormat it may have been) for the last 50 years atleast.
One of the things most people forget to mention is the fact that Potti sreeramulu fought for division from the Madras state due to the perceived negligence much like the current Telangana movement.
Also, Telangana was a state on its own before 1956 - so, the demand for separation is not something new.
In any case, 50+ years of unified Andhra Pradesh did little to solve the problems of the majority of Telangana people - I think its time Telangana people take their matters into their own hands and figure out effective solutions. Smaller states (Telangana with 3.5 crore ppl is no small state for that matter) can be administered better anyway.
I have been to villages in Telangana and been talking to ppl from the Telangana districts and the popular support for a separate state is genuine and widespread. If there were a referendum in the Telangana region, it would garner the support of at least 90% of the populace.
While I am not in support of any particular political outfit like the TRS - I do firmly believe that Telanaga statehood is for the ultimate benefit of the ppl from the region. It may not be in the short term, but much more likely in the near-long term (15-20 years perhaps).
Jai Telangana!
Mr. Y
Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:10 AM PST
I couldn't disagree more.
Your argument has parallels to a well known theory - It is called Rawl's maxi-min theory of the least advantaged or distributive justice. It proposes that all social primary goods are to be distributed equally unless an unequal distribution of any or all of these goods is to the advantage of the least favored - In this case the least favored or advantaged being the people of Telangana or atleast 90% of them according to you.
This argument/theory ignores the fact that the problem lies in the manner in which that distribution came about, not with the pattern of the distribution itself. Who is to say that the solution to an inequal distribution of resources is another redistribution of resources ? Instead of trying to cure the symptom , the country's/region's landlords should cure the problem.
I would take this a step further and equate this proposed separation to borderline socialism. And the history of socialism is proof of what can happen when such redistributive justice is handed out by the powers that be. This can only set a precedent for other such separatist movements which as you can see is already happening. In this regard you should, therefore, not be baffled by people who are equating it with a 'thousand other separate state requests'. This Balkanization will not stop once set in motion. I assume you would support all these other movements which also have a history and where possibly more than 90% of the people want it to happen. I cannot support this socialist viewpoint. I need not tell you what happened to the USSR.
I will draw another parallel , if you may. In marketing we have a well accepted theory that if you want to keep your brand alive and well and if you want to think long term growth and build equity - all the strategic decisions should be taken by headquarters and only the implementation and minor details should be left to the regional managers. The country's headquarters - The Centre - has failed to recognize the long term implications not only to India in the long term but to the region as well. Regional managers always think they need special treatment and that their case is so 'unique' and their branding has to be separate from the overall brand vision. It's up to headquarters to call the bluff.
Coming to specifics - Maybe I am not great at reading poll results but I don't know why the TRS did not win the last election hands down in Telangana (maybe they didn't have resources/money to win/buy votes ?) Why not try a less radical approach first ? Why don't the people of Telangana agitate for a Bill which calls for more equal distribution of wealth within the state of AP. Is it possible to enact this legislation ? Will that solve their problems ? Worth a try. Not having talked to a single person in Telangana, I still think the cause maybe just - the solution is not. I'm not one given to too much nostalgia and don't hold this for old times' sake. I just think the process of separation creates many inefficiencies which are not beneficial to India and the region in the long term. One hand of the Centre will always be tied up in dealing with insurgencies and as a result a bigger majority will suffer than the people of Telangana.
But overall , I'm afraid the wheels have been set in motion and this separate state will come to pass. India is a democracy by the loosest of definitions. We are making it less so by supporting such movements (and yes I did lie about the nostalgia part - I wish we could keep it together - for old times' sake)
Mr. Z
Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:41 AM PST
In an ideal democracy and an ideal society without corruption there is no need for the creation of a separate state - I am with you on that. We could all be one happy "Vasudhaika Kutumbum". That is Utopia. Unfortunately, the reality of life is very different.
As far as the "borderline socialism" branding is concerned, you can call it whatever you want. I see that as diverging from the issue and I dont want to get into the debate of Socialism-Communism-
And, I must profess that I am not a major in Social Sciences or Business Administration. So, I will stay away from which marketing strategy works best for a Multi National.
But, we must remember that this is a democracy that we are talking about and all its constituents have their voice. If the will of the majority of the people is for creating a separate state after trying to be a part of Unified Andhra Pradesh, I definitely voice my support for it. And, am sure a smaller state will be much easier to administrate, the resources allocated for the new state will be spent only in the region and so forth.
We might be sitting in the comfort of our lives with our cushy jobs - but, at the end of the day - the farming and working community across a disadvantaged region like Telangana have to figure out how to get the water for the next crop. If such a problem could not be solved in the last 50 years, who is to say that the status-quo should continue and they must continue to suffer.
It is time to be assertive and creative in coming up with solutions to ongoing problems like these. Yes, if you can get a administration that is fair and transparent to represent the people at both the state and Central level - the problems that we see today would not be there. But, how practical do you think it is in the present context in our country?
Ohh and another thing - KCR is not Telangana personified. He happens to be a politician who is much like Chandra Babu Naidus and YSRs and Lagadapatis of the world. The reason he (TRS) lost the recent elections is because:
1) He is a politician - which means he is corrupt
2) He didn't deliver on the promises that he made: to be precise, he didnt deliver Telangana state
3) The people perceived him as neglecting the cause of Telangana and hence voiced their opposition to his party: which shows that the ppl of Telananga want a separate state.
Also, NONE of the political parties that contested in the General Elections 2009 in Telangana opposed Telangana.
1) Congress explicitly stated in 2004 and months before May 2009 (Feb 2009) that they will start the process.
2) TDP was part of the Grand Alliance with TRS and promised Telangana statehood if they win
3) PRP promised Telangana as part of its Agenda
4) BJP - the one party that was consistent on Telangana statehood - ofcourse promised creation of Telangana
I am in no way supporting any political outfit. My voice of support is only for the creation of a separate state for Telangana.
Jai Telangana! And Let Peace!
Mr. Y
I wouldn't call this a creative solution..It is such a primitive solution...I was trying to kick it up a notch higher...In setting aside the macro picture you ignored the crux of my argument ..Anyway , this 'cushy job' and 'air-conditioned room' argument to doubt the credibility of people who raise issues is a rather precarious stand to take... I choose to look at the bigger picture of the 'reality of life' in India ..I made my point on this earlier... Is the solution to 50 years of politicians' incompetency a separate state ? I don't want to belabor my point any further ..
Also , using the argument of India being defined in the constitution as Socialist state is almost like quoting from the bible to prove the existence of God...That's an argument for another day..
I want to explore the question of whether the argument for a separate state is ethical.. Proponents of the separate state conveniently switch the argument to "what should be done" rather than " should anything be done"..I don't know if all other avenues have been explored sufficiently enough to impose this grand scale public goal without regards to context , costs and means...I want to get into a lot of philosophy here but will spare you the trauma...
I am sorry, but for all the talks of political party agendas - had YSR not died, nobody would have missed a beat; It would have been life as usual. I see this issue as topical - one that is raked up every now and then - to shy away from solving the problem seriously...If this issue was 50 years old , I was living in a a cocoon, cos. I never heard anything about it until this new guy started talking a few years ago...Seriosuly , please send me some literature which I can read on this issue of what the problem is and why it has been one for so long..
The "not happened before, won't happen now" argument to me is a lot of people collectively drinking a bit too much of their own Koolaid..Ultimately , a defeatist and fallback option which is being chosen...
Good discussion anyway...
Jai Bharat !
Mr. Z
Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:44 PM PST
Just because you have not heard of a problem, it does not mean that there is no dormant movement. Every movement, every cause has its ups and downs. And right now, the Telangana movement has its momentum.
And you and I were not certainly around when the 1969 movement for a separate Telangana was in full-throttle. If you read up about the root causes of that movement, you will being to grasp the roots of the problem.
My dad tells me his account of the 1969 movement and its not something that was raked up solely by selfish politicians. It was a genuine movement with real issues underneath. The SRC (State Reorg Commission) of 1956 specifically recommended not uniting Telangana and Andhra States and yet under a Gentleman's Agreement the state of AP was formed. The terms of that agreement were bound to end by 1969 without the end goals of equal distribution of resources and jobs being achieved. And, back in 1969 - I hope we can all agree that politics were not as corrupt as they are now.
Just as you feel that your credibility is being doubted by the 'cushy job' argument, branding every cause/movement a Socialist or Communist one does not help a discussion. We have our differences in opinion - and that is okay.
And as for India being a Socialist state argument is concerned: it is exactly what the Constitution has stipulated. Dont you think the Indian nation is bound by its Constitution? Rather than trying to exaggerate it by drawing a parallel with fundamentalist Christianity, a more just parallel would be the Constitutional conformists in the US (in terms of gun rights, perhaps).
And if your version of maintaining a unified AP takes thugs like YSR, I dont offer any counter to it. It is self-evident how unjustified it is.
And, after all this: what alternative solution do you propose to the Telangana issue?
Jai Telangana!
Mr. Y
Dec 17, 2009 at 2:49 AM PST
The very fact that you and I have lived through almost our entire adult lives under this so called cloud of protest and we had to ask our dads what happened in 1969 and refer wikipedia to research the gentleman's agreement is proof enough that the legs on this movement are artificial....Yes sure , I can read up about the root causes....I bet you nobody born during the Indian struggle for independence had to 'read up' why we were fighting the British...They just knew...
I guess you might therefore also have read up that the party which restarted this sham movement in 1990 was none other than the BJP which as we all know had the best intentions of the country at heart back then as seen through the Ayodhya movement ..
You are latching on to a small issue which is the parallel to the bible - mentioned just to show how people's faith can be misplaced...The reason India has progressed to what it is today , is not because it is socialist as defined by the constitution - just the opposite....B.R. Ambedkar, the man who helped draft the Constitution, specifically gave his reason for the non-inclusion of the word “socialism” when it was sought to be inserted into the Preamble. Ambedkar did not want the Constitution to tie down future generations....It was actually added on as an amendment to the preamble in 1976 during the emergency by Indira Gandhi..She did this despite the Supreme Court finding barely three years earlier that the preamble was not subject to amendment...Compulsory allegiance to socialism by political parties was imposed as an amendment to RPA in 1989 by Rajiv Gandhi..So you can only see how sacred this word is in the constitution..I don't wish to go into further debate here or dwell on all the pitfalls of socialism..It is no coincidence that countries which incorporated socialism as the only political ideology of the state inevitably degenerated into one-party dictatorship..We should be thankful India did not choose to go this path.....Anyway , you're still skirting all the other issues I raised in my original email..
Right now I am still waiting for someone to tell me why we need a separate state for these issues (issues which I am right now accepting as issues on face value) ..Telangana has 107 out of 294 MLAs which is no small number.. What makes you think that all the neglect will be corrected (in 15-20 years as u said) ? Who pays for the costs of this experiment in the short term ? Have all options been exhausted...Why does this problem have to be solved today....The movement has got attention now so why not use this to push some legislation through which impacts the region directly....Parties could have run on this plank as well (more sops,subsidies,effective legislation) but they want to sucker people into a mass hysteria which people start believing is the saving grace...
Enough said....We can agree to disagree.
Mr. Z
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:54 AM PST
My point is exactly the same - you and I are not affected in a significant way by the creation of a new state. But that does not mean that the rest of the people of the region are not. Just as you talk about the Indian freedom struggle, the people who are facing the issues know their suffering. And mind you - if the Indian nation had really fought the British as a united force, we would have had our Independence long before 1947. The silent majority simply bore through the rule. The majority of the law-enforcement and Army was Indian, wasn't it? The Telangana movement is no different.
The Gentleman's agreement is something my Dad first told me about called "Peddamanushula Oppandam". And, sure enough I read Wiki about it and there were ample references in it. If you read abt something in Wiki, does not mean that the issue does not have real legs. And, I am in no claiming that I am Telangana personified. I don't claim to know all the issues and the numbers. But, I do have some knowledge about some of the projects. And, I did talk to the people that are affected and desire a separate state. And, I firmly believe the creation of the new state will start solving some of the problems at least.
If you so firmly believe in the Unified Andhra State, why dont you furnish real numbers? Why dont you talk about how much money was spent in Telangana vs Andhra, how many major irrigation projects were promised and delivered in Telangana vs Andhra? And, if you agree that enough has not been done - what do you propose that can be done differently?
Its easy to ask someone to furnish the data to back their claims. e.g. You claim that the Indian democracy is a democracy by the loosest of the definitions. What numbers do you have to support this claim? Or what numbers do you have to support the apparent rampant corruption in the Indian system. I can go on with the list but let me spare you from the trauma.
I stand corrected on the roots of inclusion of the word Socialism in the Indian Constitution - I really didnt know the roots where it came from. On that front, I dont have anything to add - as I said in my first response, I see that as diverging from the issue that we are talking about.
As for other solutions to the Telangana problem, I have not still heard anything concrete from you. And all the abstract ones that you suggested were all promised and broken. As for the specific issues:
- The one major irrigation project that I do know that affected the people from Nalgonda district is the SLBC (SriSailam Left Bank Canal). I dont have the complete details on the project, but I have known about it since abt 5th grade. The project was promised an allocation of some 5000 crore rupees or so (the numbers might be off) and it was allocated a meagre 1 crore every year. The projected lingered on for some 20 years and only after Alimeneti Madhava Reddy's death did the Naidu goverment push forward with the project.
- There are many more such projects that have been promised in the last 30-40 years in the Telangana region and never either saw the light of the day, or were implemented to a fraction of the original plan. Devadula, Pochampadu to name a few.
- Water distribution: Telangana recieves roughly 1:4 ratio of the water from major projects like Nagarjuna Sagar dam. It was promised a 50% share.
In any case, neither I nor the Telanagana people need address all the questions that you have raised. The people are the ones that are suffering and they have suffered enough and they are demanding a separate state and I firmly support the creation of the state.
You can discount the Telanagana movement as mass hysteria and marginalize the issue. You and I dont have much at stake and we can afford to take that position. But, the people that are affected dont have that luxury.
Enough said. Its time for precipitative action. Jai Telangana!
Mr. Y
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:45 AM PST
I haven't thought about the solutions to an extent where I can start spewing proposals over email.....The people supporting it on the other hand claim to somehow be experts in knowing that this will definitely solve their problems....
All my questions do stand..Let's take the example of creation of Chattisgarh, Uttaranchal and Jharkhand..The people agitated for years against apathy of the parent states - MP, UP and Bihar, respectively...You can read what is happening to Jharkhand in the nine years since it became a micro-state - It has suffered from political inaction (surprise), corruption and Maoist insurgency....Chattisgarh has Maoist problems caused by outfits like Salwa Judum...The intensifying conflict has resulted in thousands of tribals coming out of the forest (where the Naxalites operate) to live in government-run camps..You can even see Videos of it on youtube....Uttarakhand is faring slightly better......Actually , Jharkhand and Chattisgarh became "failed" states despite the large mineral and natural resources .... How one can be assured the divided state will be economically sustainable after the division ? Or are you willing to give this a shot as if this is a poker game ?
I don't think you answered or addressed my questions and concerns about the balkanization of India in my first email even in abstract terms either - so we can call it even in terms of talking past each other...As I said , you are looking at this problem through a microscope...I am surprised to hear you asking for proof in terms of numbers for stating that India is a loose democracy...Those of us who have lived in India know what happens in our democracy and know exactly what that means.For more details I refer you to "Listening to Grasshoppers" by Arundhati Roy..It's a good read too...As for corruption , you can look up India's rank in the corruption index...What exactly is your point anyway in asking for all these numbers ? Failed irrigation projects and water issues are dime a dozen in every state and constituency in India....I
If you can support this cause without completely knowing all the issues as you stated and I can oppose it for similar reasons - imagine the number of disillusioned souls out there who have no clue why they are asking for this..
Mr. Z
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:44 AM PST
We seem to be expanding the scope of the issue with every other email. We have our differences on the creation of Telangana and let that be the case.
Mr. Y
Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:27 AM PST
This was a good discussion...I surely learnt something new from your mails. Hopefully it was the same for you and for the passive audience if they labored through these emails...We should catch up for lunch sometime.......Or not ;)
Mr. Z
Sunday, April 19, 2009
Babies
I am not ready for babies. Because if I had a baby then I will have to post pictures and Videos online and people will say - "What a cute baby ..so sweet". See I don't like people saying that. It just feels weird when people say that. If I don't post pictures of my baby online they will say -"How come you never post pictures of your baby online"...So I am not ready for babies.
Thursday, April 16, 2009
Original Limericks
Limericks by Yours truly :)
He was a naughty boy at school
Always the one to break a rule
He once put a rat
In his teacher’s hat
He blamed his friend and acted so cool
He loved reading his Shakespeare
Othello, Macbeth and King Lear
He acted too cute
Said ‘Et tu, Brute?’
When his dad once kicked him in the rear
Always the one to speak his heart
Sometimes it seems he’s acting too smart
He almost lost his life
When he told his wife
Let’s be together till lawyer do us part
He was a naughty boy at school
Always the one to break a rule
He once put a rat
In his teacher’s hat
He blamed his friend and acted so cool
He loved reading his Shakespeare
Othello, Macbeth and King Lear
He acted too cute
Said ‘Et tu, Brute?’
When his dad once kicked him in the rear
Always the one to speak his heart
Sometimes it seems he’s acting too smart
He almost lost his life
When he told his wife
Let’s be together till lawyer do us part
Friday, May 11, 2007
Life was beautiful
The 1980s in India were quiet times. This was before cable TV took over and much before the internet age. One had lots of spare time on hand as a kid then. Burning spiders in their webs was something one could do during summer vacations. Of course it always started with trying to find one nestling in its web.Not too much effort went into searching for one because it was simple. Three simple rules for finding a web - location,location,location ; nothing more nothing less. After that it was pretty straightforward. Spiders were malnourished back then and much unlike the behemoths shown in the movies ; Very reassuring indeed.
Dragonflies were another favorite target. Catching them and tying their tails to watch them fly was a great source of satisfaction.Black ants were not spared either . But there were rules here. Fat black ants were killed but the baby ants were spared because they were supposed to be agents of God. They carried sugar from the Ganesha idol in kitchen to their homes. After reading that they were saving for a rainy day , one made sure they could get all they wanted and even tracked down and delivered food to their homes.Butterflies were caught and sought to be preserved because they were colorful and beautiful. Preserving them meant putting them together in an air-tight plastic bag all night. By morning they were all dead.
So it goes...
Dragonflies were another favorite target. Catching them and tying their tails to watch them fly was a great source of satisfaction.Black ants were not spared either . But there were rules here. Fat black ants were killed but the baby ants were spared because they were supposed to be agents of God. They carried sugar from the Ganesha idol in kitchen to their homes. After reading that they were saving for a rainy day , one made sure they could get all they wanted and even tracked down and delivered food to their homes.Butterflies were caught and sought to be preserved because they were colorful and beautiful. Preserving them meant putting them together in an air-tight plastic bag all night. By morning they were all dead.
So it goes...
Friday, April 27, 2007
Limerick
"Dear future generations: Please accept our apologies. We were roaring drunk on petroleum"
-2006 AD Kurt Vonnegut
Bush and Cheney were roaring drunk on oil
Together they used the war on terror as a foil
Bush was a prick
Cheney was a dick
All they did was put a country in turmoil
So it goes.....
-2006 AD Kurt Vonnegut
Bush and Cheney were roaring drunk on oil
Together they used the war on terror as a foil
Bush was a prick
Cheney was a dick
All they did was put a country in turmoil
So it goes.....
Tuesday, April 24, 2007
My favorite quote..
Porting this one from my older blog site..
My favorite quote is not actually a quote; it is a law. Sir Isaac Newton’s third law of motion which states that “For very action there is an equal and opposite reaction”, has been meaningful not only to me, but to every living being that has inhabited this planet ever since Adam and Eve tasted the forbidden apple in the Garden of Eden. In fact, I believe Newton missed a trick when he discovered just the law of gravity as a consequence of an apple falling from a tree in his own garden in Lincolnshire. Had the apple landed on his head rather than on the ground, and produced an equal and opposite swelling, he would probably have arrived at the third law much earlier than he did. Fishes swim and birds fly only because of Newton’s third law. When people say “what goes around comes around”, they do not realize they are stating the unscientific version of Newton’s third law. The law holds true even from a philosophical point of view, though not many people truly appreciate this fact. It is my strong belief that Newton’s’ third law is intrinsically tied to the law of Karma which is central to Hinduism and Buddhism. The karmic philosophy, “As you sow, so you reap”, comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect and hence lucidly reiterates the third law. Every being in the world is directly or indirectly involved in trying to prove Newton’s third law right. Even at this moment, as I am blissfully writing this essay, I realize that if I do not finish this right now, I will face the equal, opposite and the not so pleasant reaction of my wife. It is wise not to try and prove something that is being proved everyday. I have therefore decided to take a rain check on penning down any other thoughts that I may have about the meaningfulness of the third law.
My favorite quote is not actually a quote; it is a law. Sir Isaac Newton’s third law of motion which states that “For very action there is an equal and opposite reaction”, has been meaningful not only to me, but to every living being that has inhabited this planet ever since Adam and Eve tasted the forbidden apple in the Garden of Eden. In fact, I believe Newton missed a trick when he discovered just the law of gravity as a consequence of an apple falling from a tree in his own garden in Lincolnshire. Had the apple landed on his head rather than on the ground, and produced an equal and opposite swelling, he would probably have arrived at the third law much earlier than he did. Fishes swim and birds fly only because of Newton’s third law. When people say “what goes around comes around”, they do not realize they are stating the unscientific version of Newton’s third law. The law holds true even from a philosophical point of view, though not many people truly appreciate this fact. It is my strong belief that Newton’s’ third law is intrinsically tied to the law of Karma which is central to Hinduism and Buddhism. The karmic philosophy, “As you sow, so you reap”, comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect and hence lucidly reiterates the third law. Every being in the world is directly or indirectly involved in trying to prove Newton’s third law right. Even at this moment, as I am blissfully writing this essay, I realize that if I do not finish this right now, I will face the equal, opposite and the not so pleasant reaction of my wife. It is wise not to try and prove something that is being proved everyday. I have therefore decided to take a rain check on penning down any other thoughts that I may have about the meaningfulness of the third law.
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